Interview by Kathy Todd
Photograph by
Originally pulished: Autumn 1992

Reggae music is, at long last, poised on the threshold of major commercial acceptance and success. Columbia Records' recent talent acquisitions, as well as Polygram's efforts to establish a reggae chart in Billboard magazine, point to the serious attention major labels are now devoting to reggae.

Since Epic has done quite well with Shabba Ranks, Columbia and affiliated labels are busily signing reggae artists. Columbia - New York is the label representing both Super Cat's and Mad Cobra's new releases, plus Tiger has one in the works. Rough House, distributed by Columbia, has just signed Ninja Man and, in Los Angeles, Chaos Recordings/Columbia was created to house several new acts, including the first roots and culture group to sign on, Wailing Souls. Cool Runnings applauds the courage and vision of such innovative corporate decision-making and we look to the day when this level of acceptance is industry wide.

The following telephone interview with the harmony duo Wailing Souls was conducted courtesy of Columbia. As I spoke with Winston "Pipe" Matthews and Lloyd "Bread" MacDonald, we began with a look at the harsh ghetto conditions in Trenchtown, which gave birth to the tremendous creative expression of artists like Bob Marley, Joe Higgs and Wailing Souls.

Tell me about your background. What was it like coming from Trenchtown?

Pipe: You know, I would say it's just like any other ghetto in American right now. Is pure hardship - you've got to be strong to stay alive. If you are not strong, you find that the strong will prey upon you as a weaker person. Things was very rough, yet we guys didn't choose the wrong road. We figure we should stay on the right road, so we always stick to music. There was so many bad things happening around us that if we didn't stick to the music, maybe we wouldn't be around today.

Since you now make your homes in L. A., how do you view the whole situation with the recent rioting that took place there?

Pipe: Well, the city is recovering. Still, the riot was needed to make people understand. People ain't blind any more. You know, you send people to school to have an education, and yet you want to act as if people don't have any sense. That kinda thing cannot work no more. This is not the 1930's, this is 1992.

Bread: We have a saying say, "Temptation bring frustration and frustration bring uprising." When they ask us about the riots in Los Angeles we told them that we have seen this many, many times before in Jamaica. This is not something new. And in Jamaica it's more devastating than here, because you have more people dying and things like that.

Pipe: But deep down, with all the violence and all the stuff going on, you have music and you still have doctors and people like that coming out of the ghetto.

How did the two of you initially become interested in music?

Bread: I would say the reason for us being in music is that there was so much music around us in Trenchtown. We were always involved in playing music with all these different older guys like Bob (Marley) and Joe Higgs. You have to say that Trenchtown was the musical village.

Pipe: Everywhere you go on the street, in the yards, in the kitchens - we used the kitchens as rehearsal room.

When did Wailing Souls come into being as a group?

Bread: Well, Wailing Souls started professionally in 1976, but before that, while going to school, we had groups that we were involved with. The first group we formed was in high school, a group called Renegades. We've been associated with other names, but always Wailing Souls professionally. That mean it really started in 1976 with the four of us (Bread, Pipe, Rudolph "Garth" Dennis, now reunited with Black Uhuru, and George "Buddy" Hay).

When did you first begin recording? Was it as Wailing Souls or had either of you worked in the studio prior to forming the group?

Bread: Well, myself and Pipe, we first recorded under the name together as Renegades. That was back in high school. Those days it was for fun. We found that we could do it 'cause the older guys were doing it. So we just did it - no money or anything.

Did you enter any of the talent contests that were popular at the time?

Bread: No, we really didn't have to enter any contests. Because what happen, all the professional singers used to congregate in our area in a kitchen on First Street in Trenchtown; they basically passed us. Everywhere we went and sing in the area, there was always a crowd. The professional guys always keep tellin' us, "Boy, you guys keep singin', whatever happen don't stop." Sometimes we be singing with them and you can't tell the difference. So, we didn't really enter no official contest as such.

Pipe: Our first recording as Wailing Souls came out on the Studio One label. We did three songs: we did Back Out, we did Row Fisherman Row and Fire Coal Man. We were four guys at that time, also (with Oswald Downer and Norman Davis). Afterwards, two of the guys leave and we group with Garth and Buddy and started the business serious. To date, we think the most successful albums were FIREHOUSE ROCK and WILD SUSPENSE on Island/Mango.

How about the new release, ALL OVER THE WORLD?

Pipe: Great! We love it!

And your favorite cut?

Bread: Well, I want to let you know that all of them are our favorite cuts (laughing). We love all of them.

How about the new relationship with Columbia's Chaos Recordings?

Pipe: It's fine, I mean, we been trying to get in touch with people like Columbia for years. We have been treated so fine, so good, so far. They're a great company.

How did the connection come about?

Bread: We started two years ago when Pipe linked up with one of the producers. We've known him for quite awhile from Jamaica. Pipe and Richard (Feldman) started a rhythm, then Pipe cam back and wrote lyrics and then we went in and recorded it. It sounded good, "All Over the World," We did two more songs and then we decide to try to get a deal with it. We then took it to a lawyer, David Cutico. He shop it around. When Pam Turbo (of Columbia Records) heard it, she's the first person to jump. She jump on it right away. The rest is like history 'cause it's just been up, up, since then.

Then the crossover style on the title track, "All Over the World," was totally your decision? You had it down prior to dealing with the record company?

Bread: That was our decision. Pipe and myself we were always searching for other avenues to take the music in. Reggae music as been on one stage since Bob died and not moving anywhere. So, we were always constantly looking for that when we met Richard. He's an American, so he's kind of pop-oriented. He didn't try to curb our reggae tendencies, we just blend together.

Pipe: Kind of like coordination between rhythm and blues, rock and roll, the pop and reggae.

Most of your songs are original compositions. How do you go about songwriting? Is there a particular formula to it, or is each song individual in the way that it comes to you?

Bread: You know, we really have a formula, and sometime we don't really work by the formula. We get inspiration, and whatsoever come to us at that time we put it down. Sometimes it would take like two, three months to write one song. It depend upon the inspiration at the time. You might get a couple of lines now and those lines sound good. But you are writing such a strong song that you want to have good lines. You will stop and wait for awhile until you get the next inspiration pertaining to the same song and you go ahead and write again.

Pipe: Sometimes you just boom and get inspiration and do a song in a day, in like a matter of hours.

Bread: Yeah, because everything just keep flowing, and at the same time you are getting the melody. You start writing the lyrics and the words keep coming and coming until you complete the song.

Pipe: What we try to do is always have songs in the back. We're always writing songs, so that when we go into the studio, sometimes we have all of twenty songs to choose from. Best to be prepared; that way you can make a selection.

And how did you go about selecting the two cover tunes on the new album? There's the McCarrigles "Heartbeats Accelerating" and "Sweet Black Angel" by the Rolling Stones.

Bread: Heartbeats Accelerating was chosen by our producer, Keith Drinkwater. And Sweet Black Angel was brought to us by Pam Turbo. We decided that the songs were good songs, but we feel that we could have done them better. We change them up, some different kind of stuff, and Pipe put in some little lyrics here.

Pipe: Change some words and thing like that.

I've also recently received the new release from LIVE AND LEARN. I noticed that two of the songs were written by Al Campbell.

Bread: Well, Al's our friend for the past years. Al is the man that get us to start work with LIVE AND LEARN.

Pipe: He introduce us.

Both of you have been in reggae music for a long time and have witnessed many changes over the years. What do you see as the major factor to influence or affect the music thus far, and what direction do you see for reggae in the future?

Pipe: We would like to take it to a bigger heights. As Bread said before, it's like the music is at a certain level from when Bob die. We figured that reggae is international music, it have to be at the highest level. We are going to take it to that level where people can respect the music and give it its true worth. "Cause it's like some people don't really know what reggae music is.

That's true. A lot of kids are getting into dancehall but that's all they know about reggae.

Pipe: Reggae music is with you every day. It's your life. Because, as I say, your walkin' is the riddim and your heart keep the beat. You are a part of reggae music, everyday walking', everyday livin'.

Bread: It's just like life to us. But some of the changes that we see, too, is that it get more airplay and more of the bigger companies are getting involved. That is a welcome change, but there's still a lot of things to be straightened out with the business side of the music. Lots of people they go into the studio to do a song, but that's not all, you know. When you finish with the studio product, the work has just begun. That was a thing that was haunting us all the years. We have done about fourteen albums so far, right, and it's like we're a new band still. A lots of people don't hear those songs. Now that we're with CBS, we are getting more attention and more people is going to hear the songs worldwide.

Tell me about your names, Pipe and Bread. How did they come about?

Pipe: (big laugh) Well, I can tell you, Kathy, my name, "Pipe," it come about when I used to sing a lot, as I said, in the ghetto. Every evening we used to sing and we have these big guys who keep these Ghetto Talent Parade, where they would call us and say anyone who sing the best get a dollar. Every evening I always would win the dollar. Then one evening this man who always observe us doing this thing come by us saying, "Ha, you is really a pipe, cause you always pipe out the right sound." And from that they start callin' me "Pipe."

And Bread?

Bread: Yeah, is a long time, from like when we were kids. I used to like tellin' people everything is "like bread." That means it's easy, right? So the name just stick from that, everyone just callin' me "Bread." And sometimes it happen that I always provide the bread.

Pipe: Always handle the cash. (Everyone laughs.)

Is there something you want to add, to say to your longtime fans and to all the new fans to come?

Bread: I'd like to say to my longtime fans: be prepared, because we are still here and they can look for better things to come. And my new fans, they can open their ears, because Wailing Souls is a group that has been putting out good sounds for a number of years.

Pipe: Yeah, and I would like to add, just tell them to keep the faith and One Love, One Heart, One Unity, know what I mean. And let the joy of love spread all around.

Bread: 'Caw there could be no peace unless there is love.